Trade Adverts

Always wanted, Myford ML7 & Super 7 or ML10 Lathes. The good, the bad or the ugly. Read more for contact details. ...
Read more...
I offer a casting service specialising in small batches and one offs, producing good quality castings in variours alloys using the lost wax process, ideal for the model engineer and restorer. Any enquiries and more details can be found on my web site. www.abbeycasting.c......
Read more...
Call Steve Cox on 07836 736496 or email for quote. Machinery removal and transportation service based in West Yorkshire, UK coverage. Crane can lift 1100kg at 1.2 metres and 420kg at 4.0 metres. Vehicle can carry 1100kg on 10 foot x 7 foot flatbed.
Now using flatbed Transit with rear mounted…
Read more...
Want to put your advert on the site like this one. We get over 25,000 visitors a month to these pages and your name could be right here at the top of the listings. If you haven't got a web site that's no problem, we can just put the details…
Read more...
...
STEAMPLATES produce high quality polished and enamelled name plates  etc. in Brass and Aluminium from 1" x 1/2" up to 96" x 48".  Reproduction steam related name and other plates can be made to FULL  SCALE.

We also make other…
Read more...
Hi we are the people that host this wonderful site and want to offer our services to members of clubs and groups that would like their own presence on the world wide web. We have special unlimited space and transfer for only £40 £33 a year for clubs…
Read more...
Home Workshop > Members > Forum > General Area > General > OT: Electric vehicles only by 2040

New forum, please make sure you select which category you need to post in. Any posts just dropped in the general category will be moved or deleted, depending on what mood the moderators are in.
Guests can reply to posts in the information forum, so you don't need to log in to answer someone.


Now 3 members online
and 91 guests online
Powered by JoomlaMe

OT: Electric vehicles only by 2040

OT: Electric vehicles only by 2040

Just feeling the need to rant about this stupid announcement....


It is interesting to crunch some numbers: 

The UK's total generating capacity is about 74.8GW  (as of 2015, although this is expected to drop to 70.6GW by 2019). As of 26 Nov 2016 this was supplied by 57% Gas, 20% nuclear, 8% coal, 5% biomass, 2.6% french ICT 2.6% Dutch ICT,  2% wind plus a few otherminor sources.


Typical peak demand is 48GW, leaving about 20GW for fast charging (assuming all resources are available)

Last night (26 Nov 2016) overnight demand (between midnight and 05:00) dropped to 26.3GW. Leaving about 48.5 GW to charge batteries over night (assuming all resources are available)

(http://www.nationalgrid.com/uk/Electric … mand24.htm)

The typical EV battery is between 10kWh and 90kWh ( 3kW - 20KW required charge depending on speed)

So, the UK might just be able to cope  with 16 million electric cars charging slowly over night or as few as a million on fast charge
(Assuming  the domestic grid can cope with the current) .

There are 31.7 million cars on the UK's road as of 2016.


ONE standard petrol pump can ‘dispense’ about 20,000kw ; 600 gallons per hour times 33.4kwh/ USgallon (figures in UK/Europe are similar). Compare this with your standard domestic supply which is,in the UK 60A@230v, ~ 14kw. Nobody’s going to be charging their electric vehicle at home very fast unless there is a significant upgrade to the power grid.

Another point: there are 8 pumps at my local petrol station, and there must be more than half a dozen similar sized filling stations within a mile or two. Those can supply about a gigawatt of power, or about the same output as the Sizewell B nuclear power station (PWR).

If all future vehicles are going to be electric, our neighbourhoods are going to change out of all recognition.


Bill

Bill

useravatar
Bill Todd
BillTodd
Craftsman
ranks
Offline
258 Posts
Male  Website 
Administrator has disabled public posting

Re: OT: Electric vehicles only by 2040

Bill I would guess the reason for the above has to do with imposing far heavier taxes on users of fossils fuels? Greenwash, global warming, etc etc is very big business now and taxpayers are already forking out enormous sums to large and voraciously greedy corporations to fund what seem in most instances to be spurious sustainable energy projects.

useravatar
Chris Stevens
classictrial
Craftsman
ranks
Offline
161 Posts
Administrator has disabled public posting

Re: OT: Electric vehicles only by 2040

Hi Bill,
you're going to get nowhere quoting actual figures, numbers and some basic physics, that's not going to butter any parsnips down Westminster way. Just look at dismantling nuclear power stations in favour of other renewables. Even a quick mental calculation of typical values suggests we'll need around 50,000-odd windmills (oh, "turbines" I'm sorry) to replace the nukes, but the perverse irony is that it was the tree huggers and twitchers who emasculated the plans to put just a few dozen on the marshes down near Dungeness nukes A & B. They conceded to a few only, you can almost feel the lights dimming.

As you identify, looking at it another way, even if we were to invest in a generating capacity to replace the equivalent of something around 50M tonnes of petrol & diesel per year (http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov. … e11250.pdf) how the devil are we going to cable that lot into places where people have their (now electric) cars? OK so maybe car use falls, maybe puplic transport use increases, but we're orders of magnitude away, not a few percent.
Tesla coils are great fun to play with, but a regular thunderbolt into the centre of a big metropolis is likely to raise more than just a few eyebrows.

So it goes on and on and on. No one in power (pardon the pun) can do even the most basic aritmetic (Diane Abbot aside) - unless it's for their expenses of course - and none as far as I can work out has the slightest interest in trying to do so; facts don't win votes, least of all expensive ones.

There was a very sensible Prof (from UMIST I think) on the idiot's lantern the other night who calmly remarked that if we (UK) were to achieve what the Gov't is promising, the investment costs would dwarf HS2 by a massive margin. So somehow I foresee a replacement bus-service being instituted and a lot more road cones.......

I am very pro-anything to generally diminish our human impact on the planet - it seems an obviously laudable aim, but the lunatic promises and patently inconsistent criteria indicates it's just another triumph of spin over substance.

I use to be thoroughly cynical, but I find myself nowhere near that optimistic these days.

- Richard -

useravatar
Richard Shute
SharkfacePilot
Who dies with most toys, wins
Designer
ranks
Offline
504 Posts
Male 
Administrator has disabled public posting

Re: OT: Electric vehicles only by 2040

Thankyou Richard.

few seem to understand that while electric car are fine (if the battery is big enough) they still need to be powered . Wind and solar are not going to do this (wind only produces between 33% and 24% of its installed capacity per annum, over-night charging from solar is problematic).

If we don't start building new nuclear power stations (because there are NO alternatives ), we could be in the ridiculous position of burning more gas or oil just charge batteries than to drive the vehicles directly .

Bill

Bill

useravatar
Bill Todd
BillTodd
Craftsman
ranks
Offline
258 Posts
Male  Website 
Administrator has disabled public posting

Re: OT: Electric vehicles only by 2040

Not sure that farces like Hinckley Point indicate that nuclear power provides a serious alternative? The fact that there is also currently no method of dealing with waste safely also seems to cast doubt on the viaibility of expanding nuclear power generation here in the UK?

useravatar
Chris Stevens
classictrial
Craftsman
ranks
Offline
161 Posts
Administrator has disabled public posting

Re: OT: Electric vehicles only by 2040

Chris Stevens wrote:

Not sure that farces like Hinckley Point indicate that nuclear power provides a serious alternative? The fact that there is also currently no method of dealing with waste safely also seems to cast doubt on the viaibility of expanding nuclear power generation here in the UK?

If we are going require tens of gigawatts of electric power for transport in the next few decades then nuclear power is really the only alternative (the only one ready to go now). I'm not a huge fan of nuclear power, it is just one of those inconvenient truths .

Are you suggesting the waste currently stored is dangerous?   because I'd be happy to store a few tonnes of HLW under my house  (and say goodbye to my heating bills as it produces about 1kW of heat per tonne ) The storage problem is one of cost atm.  BNFL want a cheaper alternative not a safer one.

Bill

useravatar
Bill Todd
BillTodd
Craftsman
ranks
Offline
258 Posts
Male  Website 
Administrator has disabled public posting

Re: OT: Electric vehicles only by 2040

Bill, I get the distinct feeling that if the powers that be can screw more out of us for electric transport than for fossil fuels, that its certainly something which is going to happen.  There is no wholly safe way of storing nuclear waste and Cameron ignored his own pledge of no more UK nuclear until safe waste storage system was possible.

useravatar
Chris Stevens
classictrial
Craftsman
ranks
Offline
161 Posts
Administrator has disabled public posting

Re: OT: Electric vehicles only by 2040

Chris,  nothing is wholly safe. Safety is one of those bogie words used by people that do not understand risk   .  The danger posed by nuclear waste to you or me is absolutely tiny and not much greater even to those working in the industry. The need for alternative storageis entirely financial.

Bill

useravatar
Bill Todd
BillTodd
Craftsman
ranks
Offline
258 Posts
Male  Website 
Administrator has disabled public posting

Re: OT: Electric vehicles only by 2040

Yes you are right. Grenfell seemed to prove far more mundane things are a lot more dangerous! Hinckly though suggests to me that putting UK power generation into the hands of the French and Chinese is a very bad (and expensive!) idea...............

useravatar
Chris Stevens
classictrial
Craftsman
ranks
Offline
161 Posts
Administrator has disabled public posting

Re: OT: Electric vehicles only by 2040

I have this wonderful vision of an urban street, with lines of cars parked in the road on either side.  And rows of cables laying across the pavement.  The cables are probably connected from the extension that used to be the garage!

Geoff

useravatar
Geoff Johnson
GeoffJ
Charge Hand
ranks
Offline
30 Posts
Male 
Administrator has disabled public posting

Re: OT: Electric vehicles only by 2040

I do not believe anyone in Government has dome any arithmetic. There must be a few MPS who know the differences between fuel, energy and power, the meanings of IV = W, of the concepts of Efficiency (in engineering terms), hazard and risk, but on the whole most seem not to; and would rather listen to campaigners who certainly don't.

I have a vision of a nightmarish queue on the motorways and main roads out of London or any other city as commuters desperate to have their cars re-charged in order to drive home, all try for the relatively few public charging-points available.   

I looked up the spec for the Nissan LEAF, allegedly the presently best-selling electric shopping-car. It has a battery capacity of 24kWh according to Nissan's own blurb. I don't know the car's power rating, but 24kW is close to 32HP,  fairly modest for a modern car, and at full chat would flatten the battery in an hour at most. If the motor in a similarly-sized car was rated at only 16HP (12kW) it would give you a 2-hr max power range - not much use for someone living in some of the less-populated areas of the British Isles, where most of what services that did exist have all faded away......

Actually battery-electric cars, delivery vans and small lorries were being developed in Edwardian times. Although battery and motor designs have been developed significantly since then of course, the old limitations of range and charging rates still remain even if longer now.

There is another point. More and more, electrical equipment depends on rare-earth elements found in significant volumes only in widely-spaced parts of the world, some in countries run by very dubious governments indeed; but still needing to be extracted and processed, then transported half-way round the globe. Transported by what? Sailing ships?

useravatar
Nigel Graham
Nigel
Nigel
Charge Hand
ranks
Offline
53 Posts
Male 
Administrator has disabled public posting

Re: OT: Electric vehicles only by 2040

I think the actual statement was there would be no NEW petrol or diesel CARS available from 2040. The run on to get rid of existing vehicles could be 15 - 20 years after that.
With Honda et al  developing the Hydrogen fuel cell the reliance on grid charging would be severely reduced by that time.
Also consider that with the amount of lost revenue to the government with the loss of current fossil fuel sales it wont be long before grid supplied electricity for charging will be priced / taxed accordingly.

useravatar
John Abbatt
Lofty76
Apprentice
ranks
Offline
2 Posts
Administrator has disabled public posting

Re: OT: Electric vehicles only by 2040

John,

I agree that the government of the day will need to replace 'lost' fuel duty, but doubt even they will be foolish enough to try and tax only the Electricity used to charge a car for road use but not tax the power used to boil a kettle.

I think it's  more likely they will abolish road fuel duty before that time and introduce road charging. That will be simple to apply to any vehicle whatever its fuel or energy source is.

useravatar
Steve Sparrow
steamplates
Steamplates
Charge Hand
ranks
Offline
51 Posts
Website 
Administrator has disabled public posting

Re: OT: Electric vehicles only by 2040

Quite agree Steve, except that having seen a colleague purchase a Nissan Leaf, and then be told his house electrics wern't up to the task. The result was a totally independent power supply (30 Amp)  to a dedicated charging point which could easily be metered. Governments never miss a trick when it comes to taxation I bet we end up with a charge on 'the charge' and road duty as well.

useravatar
John Abbatt
Lofty76
Apprentice
ranks
Offline
2 Posts
Administrator has disabled public posting

Re: OT: Electric vehicles only by 2040

I just got the schedule for upcoming I Mech E talks & visits and noticed this

http://www.homeworkshop.org.uk/components/com_agora/img/members/116/Elec-Cars-Lecture.jpeg

It does not say it is a members only event so I think anyone can contact the organiser to attend. Should be good, the two Prof's are from my alma mater and appear to be talking entirely good sense.

- Richard -

useravatar
Richard Shute
SharkfacePilot
Who dies with most toys, wins
Designer
ranks
Offline
504 Posts
Male 
Administrator has disabled public posting

Board Info

Board Stats:
 
Total Topics:
4345
Total Polls:
2
Total Posts:
10613
Total Posts Today:
3
User Info:
 
Total Users:
1382
Newest User:
Simon Osborne
Members Online:
3
Guests Online:
551


Forum Legend:

 Topic
 New
 Locked
 Sticky
 Active
 New/Active
 New/Locked
 New Sticky
 Locked/Active
 Active/Sticky
 Sticky/Locked
 Sticky/Active/Locked

Gallery

[Crane 1]

Crane 1

[General view]

[S&B 1024]

S&B 1024

[Smart & Brown 1...]

[10-20mm We...]

10-20mm Welsh Gravel

[Welsh Gravel us...]

[Sigma rota...]

Sigma rotab

[]

[vert milli...]

vert milling slide

[]

[timber cab...]

timber cabinet se-iso

[]

[Grinding J...]

Grinding Jig 3

[]

[14mm Staff...]

14mm Staffordshire Gravel

[Staffordshire g...]

[rh view]

rh view

[]

[US PRO TOO...]

US PRO TOOLS - timber engineers rollycab

[]

[avatar]

avatar

[]

[Elliot 10M...]

Elliot 10M shaper

[A nice small sh...]

[A&S Combin...]

A&S Combination

[A&S Combination...]

[Record CL1...]

Record CL1 Instruction Manual

[]

[Stanko 676...]

Stanko 676P

[Stanko Import t...]

[Oscillator]

Oscillator

[]

[Chipmaster]

Chipmaster

[I956 Chipmaster...]

[hand crank]

hand crank

[]

[Habit some...]

Habit something 3

[Top scale showi...]

[Grinding J...]

Grinding Jig2

[]

[Home made ...]

Home made Surface Grinder 1

[Made from the b...]

[Studer OB]

Studer OB

[Alignment compl...]

[Workshop]

Workshop

[]

[Habit some...]

Habit something 1

[Left hand side ...]

[Building S...]

Building Sand

[Brick walling o...]

 

Disclaimer

Any adverts on the homeworkshop.org.uk site are posted by individuals acting in their own right and do not necessarily reflect the views of the administrators.

By using the site, individual posters agree not to post any defamatory or libellous posts and to accept full responsibility for the items they post.

We do not warrant that the servers that make this website available will be error, virus or bug free and you accept that it is your responsibility to make adequate provision for protection against such threats.

In no event will homeworkshop.org.uk be liable for any incidental, indirect, consequential or special damages of any kind, or any damages whatsoever, including, without limitation, those resulting from loss of profit, loss of contracts, goodwill, data, information, income, anticipated savings or business relationships, whether or not advised of the possibility of such damage, arising out of or in connection with the use of this website or any linked websites.

We do not sell, hire, share or give out your email address.

The software that runs this site (Joomla!) may transfer a temporary cookie so it can keep track of what it’s doing. As it’s temporary it maybe deleted when you leave here.

So that we can measure the popularity of posts, where people come from and other general statistics, we use Google Analytic’s. It may store cookies to track new  and repeat visitors. It does not have any detail on who you are.

Advertising links can use cookies to track from which site you came from. Some of those will be for affiliate links where cookies are used in tracking and payment systems.

All copyrights, trademarks and intellectual property rights remain with the owners unless owned or licensed by the homeworkshop.org.uk site.

This disclaimer notice shall be interpreted and governed by English law, and any disputes in relation to it are subject to the jurisdiction of the courts in England and Wales. 

 

Donate

Want to help us fund the site and time spent by the people behind it then use the button below.

We are not a registered charity so you can't claim it back but it helps pay for the costs of improving the features.

You can also help by looking at the advert on the side menus as we get paid for these BUT please only look at adverts you are interested in, you never know you might find something you never knew existed.